"When Your Child Asks For A Dog" - An interview with author, Ciaran Walsh. Followed By: "Is Having a Dog and a Baby Too Time Consuming?"

Welcome! In this episode, we chat with author, Ciaran Walsh, on how his newly released book gives parents a "get out of jail free card" when their child asks for a dog. This questions ("Can I have a dog pleeeeeeease?") is asked hundreds of times around the world daily. Are you prepared for the answer?

Although a children's book, the underlying purpose is to provide parents with the tools to determine if their family is ready to bring a dog into their lives and, if so, how to responsibly choose the right dog for them.  This book is creative, fun and packed with thought provoking questions. 

This chat is followed up with a talk on bringing a child home when you already have a dog. Many people feel pressured to surrender their dog due to "not enough time". Is this necessary and what can you do to prepare?

Ciaran Walsh | LinkedIn

Check out season 1 and 3 all new episodes!!  More info on Canine CBT and how it relates to you and your dog. 

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Billie Groom | LinkedIn
UPWARD Dogology (@upwarddogology) • Instagram photos and videos
Upward Dogology | Facebook
Billie Groom with a rescue | Linktree


Thanks again to the musicians
Jeff Mertick | Facebook
Danielle Bourjeaurd | Facebook
Open Strum | Facebook
Brian John Harwood | Facebook

Find all the episodes on Feedspot, where Dog Training DisrUPted is rated in the top 5 shows in the dog category in Canada: https://blog.feedspot.com/canadian_dog_podcasts/

To become a certified Canine CBT Psychotherapist, and for courses on related topics, please visit the Institute of Canine Psychotherapy.

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Here is the link to the recent article in Psychology Today Mag by Marc Bekoff on Canine CBT
Dog Training: Perception, Cognition, and Emotions | Psychology Today

Buy My Book! Winner of the 2019 American Best Book Fest Award (pets/narrative/non-fiction)
The Art of Urban People With Adopted and Rescued Dogs Methodology: Rescued Dogs: The Misunderstood Breed: Groom, Billie: 9781525547287: Books - Amazon.ca

Transcript

“When Your Child Asks For A Dog”. Interview with Ciaran Walsh. Plus, bringing a baby home. (Podcast Transcript) — Upward Dogology

[00:00:00] Billie: Welcome to dog training disrupted by Upward Dogology, where I retrain your brain and introduce you to the world of cognitive behavioral therapy for dogs. Over the age of six months, we have the most interesting guest on this episode. Ciaran Walsh is the author of a really unique book. It's technically a children's book or a family project book.

It provides a step-by-step program, allowing families to make educated decisions prior to, or post bringing a dog into their. This book is grounded in animal welfare through education, which of course resonates with me. So what is the name of this book? Well, the name of this book is actually a question that gets asked every 0.7 seconds somewhere around there.

Stay tuned to find out.

Hello. I'm Billie Groom, your host and successful dogologist for three decades and expert in canine, cognitive behavioral therapy. And I have with me Ciaran, Hey, Ciaran. How's it. 

[00:01:11] Ciaran: Oh, good, Billie. Thank you for inviting me on your show. Well, thank 

[00:01:14] Billie: you so much for joining us and you're joining us from the UK.

So it is what the afternoon there. 

[00:01:22] Ciaran: It's the afternoon in Ireland, not the UK, 

[00:01:25] Billie: not the oh, you're in Ireland. That's right. I forgot about that. That's right. So what are, what's your what's your season? 

[00:01:34] Ciaran: Well, you only have two seasons in Ireland where it's raining and cold or not raining cold. So luckily today it's not raining.

[00:01:42] Billie: Well, that's a good sign. That's hilarious. Okay. So I'm going to just dive right into this because your book is so unique. I think the reason it is so unique is the reason behind it. Why. Y you're really what you're really getting into in this book. And so do you want to just start with that with why you just decided this is such an important book for you to create?

[00:02:11] Ciaran: I suppose it's a very simple reason that they, the group behind this, there's like a core group of about eight people and. Roughly more than 50 experts, including yourself, Billie, who has that a part of the book 30 simply trying to change the world. It really is. It's a simple task and they way we're trying to change the word is by changing the conversation and everybody will tell you.

Quite often, your life can change. After a conversation, you can meet somebody, have a conversation with them, and suddenly you're in a new job. A new life could be a new husband, a new wife, or, sorry, I would say a first husband or first this conversation. This conversation is no different. And. This is strange conversation.

It's a conversation between a child and an adult, and there are sort of two properties to the first one is it happens somewhere in the world, almost twice every second. So you look at the total number of dogs that are adopted every year. And you divide that by the number of seconds in a day and which category, and suddenly you discovered that around the world, there is a child asking an adult to have a dog in the house.

Roughly somewhere between every 0.6 and 0.8 of a second. 

[00:03:53] Billie: The station is the mom, dad, my best friend has a dog. So I want one. 

[00:03:59] Ciaran: That's the conversation. And so maybe just to put a, sort of a mathematical field to this and the logical feel to it, which is now the statistics are a little bit tricky because it all depends on which source of information you take on.

And even the best researchers will say, well, we could be wrong about our statistics and that's, that's everything from veterinary reports to. To factory association, international veterinary association. So it's a global figure is that there's somewhere between 600 million to 900 million dogs in the world.

Then you have to work out how many of those are street dogs? How many of them are pet dogs? In other words, domesticated dogs in the states. It's a very good example where there's very few street though. You go to south America, you go to Asia to some countries. It's about 70% of the dogs are street dogs and the, the minority are actually pet dogs.

So what we're looking at for, for this purpose of the book is the number of adoptions that take place every year. So every year you'd have a natural mortality rate by 10% of the dog herd and almost immediately. 10% or roughly that number slightly above, slightly below, depending on what's happening in the world.

But that would be the number of adoptions that take place. So in the U S this conversation will happen every 4.3 seconds. There will 

[00:05:41] Billie: be. Let me just ask a question here. So when you say adoption, Are you only talking about dogs that are adopted or included in these stats? Are you talking about dogs that these families may or may not get from a reputable breeder?

[00:06:04] Ciaran: Okay. That's 

[00:06:04] Billie: so are you talking about the dogs that these, these families are, are getting.

It's only, or is this a whole other conversation? 

[00:06:17] Ciaran: No, no, I know that. That's a very, it's a very fair question. A very good question. So I perhaps just focus on the, the general landscape for a moment. So when we talk about, about Kanye and adoptions and we take the states, so it, it, it generally falls into a few different groupings.

So about 20%. Of dogs that go into a home are usually into a person who is about six years plus, and they've recently lost her husband, the wife, the partner, and they need to companion animal, and they will decide this group. They will take their time and the dog will arrive eventually. So they will probably know somebody who've they've had many years friendship with who even knows the local rescue shelter manager.

And the dog arrives and a lot of research has done. It's usually an excellent fit and there's very few problems about the other 80%. It's usually into the home where you have six to 10 year old child and one parent or two parents in the house. And the way that need is served, it's roughly 50%. Of that demand comes from the rescue shelters, then the breeders, this is the commercial breeders.

Now there's two types of breeders would say there's the attentive licensed, reputable commercial breeder. And they will serve about 15% of the markets and I'll put it this way. They are more choosy about who gets their dogs and the other way around. So you're talking about. I've already exceptional element in the landscape.

If you get a dog from a professional commercial breeder, you run into a lot of demands very quickly. One of them for example, is that you won't actually own the dog. You co-own the dog that the braider will demand that in the contract. They will have a right to take the dog back. If there's any poor reports coming back that have the right of inspection and swamp, they other 35% of the market is served by bogus breeders, poppy metals.

And this is really, I would say a center of horror and evil as I spent many years working as a volunteer in a rescue shelter. And I'm a professional dog. And I had incidences where I had to look after dogs that came from these focus puppy mills that were often rated by the police. And maybe to, to drive the point home.

When the dogs from, or the puppies from a puppy mill are examined by a fish, usually three to four out of every seven, have to be put down to meet. Because the genetics and the Oregons are so weak, they don't have a hope of survival, but that's what the, that's what the braiders don't care about. Because once this acute picture on the internet, and there's an ill informed choice being made, the credit card comes out, the dog would probably stay alive for a few months.

And that's anything from $500 to $3,000. The changes hands very quickly. So.

[00:09:47] Billie: I was just going to say your book is just to, to inform the listeners here is, is actually it looks as though it's, it's a child's book, it's a family friendly book. It works for both adults and children, but it is you know, pictures and, and a lot of drawings. And I don't know if it's cartoons or I guess it would be just drawings.

And quite, quite well done. I love that, but some of the topics here are, are pretty heavy. I mean, I know you, so I know that w and we know a lot of the same people and in the animal welfare world, and as much as we all have the same goal, we also each have our own, like real hard hit point that is just really super heartfelt to us.

And they all work together. And I know that yours is and. Backyard breeding, which is a very valid and a great cause. And that's a pretty heavy subject. So do you get into that? You, you know, I I've obviously read your book in, in the book, I, I find you, you present these topics in such an interesting way because they are heavy yet.

It's a child's book yet. You do get the point across.

Is that a purpose because it seems to me that that's a purpose for this book is to, well, I've read it a few places in, in what you've said is to, to get those right out of business. And it's interesting that it, that a child's book has the goal of you know, dismissing or eliminating, or just getting rid of these, these backyard breeders.

It's such a, it's such an interesting way of approaching that.

I guess I didn't really ask a question there, but I just, I just, you know, it, it's just such an interesting way. So, so let's talk about the book and how it does that, how, how you go through on the book and, and it, and bring these points to life in a way that also connects to the children. So tell us about that.

[00:11:50] Ciaran: I suppose. Maybe to explain very briefly. And in a former life, I was a financial advisor. And one of the things we always look at in the financial world is what's the trigger that causes expenditure. And what's the aftermath. And in the model where we looked at the 35% of the puppy mill Americas can only exist.

If there's an ill-informed decision. Right now you let's look at it from a very seminar, vantage point, which is if nobody bothered to buy illegal drugs, the entire drug market would collapse. Right. So in other words, that's entire market depends on. People needing, needing to spend money or well, maybe need is not the word, but wanting, choosing now the same as very, is very similar with the poppy mill industry, because the profits are almost identical.

I know this will sound crazy, but when you look at the money involved, it is not very far behind the sale of illegal arms and illegal drugs. Every year, the expenditure on puppy mill dogs in the states is between four and 7 billion. That's about 180 to $90 going into that, into that industry every second.

And that's all done on ill-informed choices. So what this book is trying to do. It's it's definitely multifaceted and we're, we're trying to solve a lot of social problems in the one in the one addition. So very simply when you look at all of the possible triggers that causes that caused dogs to be adopters, or even neglectors within a, within a home, it all comes down to mismanagement.

Lack of skills, lack of information. Not necessarily a lack of care. No. 

[00:14:12] Billie: I think a lot of people start out with good intentions. A lot of my clients do, they start out with very good intentions. It's just the reality check sets in. And that's what I love so much about your book. Is it, it provides that reality check.

If, if you want to call it that. So it's interesting because it could actually turn people off from adopting, which seems so opposite to what we all want to do. You know, we want people to get dogs and to bring whether they get them from a reputable breeder or adopt them from a shelter or rescue, but we want these people, these really good people to have these dogs.

And yet what's so unique about your book is, is you're saying if you, if you. Go through this book and the step-by-step program. And it doesn't, you know, you can't answer these questions or you answer them in ways that might get you to think twice about getting a dog. So it's interesting because it can actually deter people from getting one.

[00:15:18] Ciaran: While they are, I would say a deterrent would be accidental and at the lowest, lowest end of the ambition scale. So what this basically does is it creates a space between the child's question and the parent's answer. And it's the first efforts to facilitate this space. So when the child asks the question, what the boot basically does is give the parents a chance to assess their resolve behind the child's demand.

Now, at the same time, if the child is a hundred percent serious, reach the love story between the rescue shelter dog, and then the parent goes through the narrative, which is there. And then underneath the narrative, there's a series of learning tasks. And if the child persists and goes through the learning task through the entire book, then what you'll get is a different breed of child.

In other words, you'll have a child that's dedicated and as the book controls, the child will be armed with a lot of project management skills. In other words, very quickly, the child will understand. How a dog sees the world, how a dog moves into a new environment, the importance of time, the importance of space, importance of quietness.

And these are all sort of very soft scales and very subtle scales. But by the time the child gets to the end of the book, they'll have a different way of not just seeing how a dog behaves or whether they really wanted. But probably they'll have a different way of seeing the entire word. Wow. 

[00:17:13] Billie: Wow. That's fantastic because I think you're right where a lot of people think, okay, we're going to get up in the morning and we're going to let the dog out to the yard and we're going to feed the dog and walk the dog and then put the dog in the crate and go to work and school and such things.

And they have this planned out. Overall, you know it, or we have to pick up the dogs, poo, you know, we have tasks that are like physical tasks, but the mental, the mindset of, you know, you might want to be on the, on your phone or device with your friends, but your dog is going to want to play, you know, your dog's going to want to hang out.

And it's just that overall time where they might not think, you know, that all of a sudden. Four 15, they can just stop playing with their dog. So it, that, that is, I do like that a lot about your book is it's not just ticking the boxes on the task. It's a mindset, 

[00:18:20] Ciaran: it's a complete mindset and that's That's probably what's needed to change around the world.

If any of the problems we've talked about, ADR are going to change. And it's the old phrase. If nothing changes, nothing changes. And when we discussed that, when I say we, that the core group I work with, and many of the experts I've worked with, we looked at all the different aspects, you know, from the legal to.

How rescue shelters, how charities work and there's all these connections along the road, but every year it's like the system is self programmed to fail again and fail again the following year. And one of the statistics that shout out at me when I was looking at the the number of strays in Ireland and the UK and in a lot of countries, it seems to be like flat.

That's every year, you get almost an identical number of stray dogs that are picked up by the warden service. And it's like, that never goes up much or goes down much. And the S you know, at the same, the number of dogs that are euthanized and rescue shelters, it's almost flatline. So what came across when I was looking at the statistics was we have a system in many countries that's designed.

To my pop a problem rather than solvers. Now there are some countries that have very good at solving it. I will mention one, which is the gold standard and I, which is Switzerland. And they have a completely different mindset. The Swiss, I would say they have a different mindset about a lot 

[00:20:04] Billie: of things. Say that is a holistic, I was, it's not just a, you know, their whole mindset, which is easier.

Take on that mindset on one area, if all your other areas follow that same type of yeah. 

[00:20:21] Ciaran: And what the idea behind this book is, is to sort of take a look at the best practices and see, can we bring them in, in a soft, lower and influential way without trying to stuff it down. Anyone's neck. Now, what I mean by that is in Switzerland, everything is driven top down rule of law.

And if you opened a poppy mill in Switzerland, or if you walked a dog without a license, you'd be doing a lot of time. You'd be paying a fortune or you'd be doing a lot of jail. And it's a country where they, they don't take excuses, which is fair enough. That's that's how things are done there. But the important lesson from these countries is that the onus of responsibility is on the.

It's not on the state to pick up the tab at the end of the day. So to give you a very simple example of how that works in Switzerland, you must do a theory course. If you want to own a dog. And then once you have the theory course, you have to go and get indemnity insurance and health insurance for the dog.

And then you go down to the town hall and you pay about $1,500 for the dog license. After that you may take possession of the dog. You have 30 days to make sure the dog is vaccination. Vast inspectors. Then you go back to the dog training school where you're assessed. If you're actually able to, to take care of the dog and walk the dog.

Now, if the dog trainers at the dog training school are unhappy with what they see, your license can be stopped, or you could be asked to come back for some training sessions. Now I know everybody who hears that would say, oh, well, that could never work for where we live. Forget. Now, what I would say is, hold on a minute in the last week, Spain just announced they're going to bring in a compulsory training course for anybody who wants to talk by 2030.

So the tide is shifting. It's very slow. This is the way to go. And now what I would say is, and with the book and a lot of the people I've worked with the last year at the basically saying, if you wait for legislation, it might not produce the goods the way you hope. And there might be some, what's the word, this, the law of unintended consequences.

So the whole point of the book is we go for the elements that could be changed the simplest, but have the largest impact. So the whole point here is if your child asks for a dog, this is the perfect book. If your child has a dog already, this is still the perfect book because it's a day by day manual, but it says in terms of how your dog looks at you and what's going on in the dog's head, you know, and then there's the importance of training, the importance of good food.

And it's never too late. If you have a dog for a few years, I would suggest get this book because there's some elements in that that will guarantee a lot of happiness in the home. And for example, one of them, which was one there's one chapter written by Debbie Hamilton, who's a leading lawyer and animal advocates in the states and she's written a lovely piece about.

How to consider what might happen if your legal status changes, how your dog's status changed. Quite simply, if you become disabled in the morning, or you were delayed as an airport, you wouldn't be able to get back for a few weeks on your dog was taken into care, would it be destroyed immediately? So she has a very simple chapter in that plus the form that anybody can download, fill out.

And it solves that. 

[00:24:21] Billie: Yeah. So solution oriented 

[00:24:23] Ciaran: solution oriented to book, a planning orientation. And I would say to any parents, look, take a look at this. It's worth a try and in the longterm. And I do mean this, the very long-term, it's more than just a love story and a bit of amusement for a child, but you'll be creating a mindset for your child.

How do I look at a situation? What's the narrows of, do I need to learn anything? So as your child goes through life, there'll be times when you relationships either personal or in the work have to be taken out. So if they have this training between six and 10, well then, you know, going to college, going in with a different group.

Then the complexities and the shock, they're all gone. This is, this is a way of doing it. And I, the best teacher I had in life was the dog. We got the rescue. There 

you 

[00:25:21] Billie: go. Dogs are the best teachers. Absolutely. It's interesting that you say about the dog's perception because that's really what cognitive behavioral therapy is all about is, is the dog's perception.

They can do no right or wrong. It's a matter of learning that perception. And then working with. And the dog in your book is a, a mature rescue dog. So obviously Leo has his own perceptions. So yeah, I think it's, it's a great book because it not only focuses on one topic, but there's so many, you know, the, the obvious that we have to take the dog to the vet some basic training then there's grooming and then there's Debra Hamilton.

You know, there's just so many facets to think about. And perhaps maybe the way Switzerland does it forces that thinking process. 

[00:26:13] Ciaran: Yes. Changing the thought patterns over. I think the only way to get out of the present difficulties is take along 10 to 20 year view of it. Start early, start with the children.

[00:26:26] Billie: And I agree with that. Yeah. Cause there's some countries that have enacted laws like Costa Rica when I was there on, on how to treat the street dogs and everyone said, oh no, you know, you can make it illegal to, to treat them poorly, but no one will ever enforce it. It won't get done. And you know, the older generation was a bit of a tougher that was more challenging.

But as the, as the younger generation started to get older and, and deal with these community dogs in these streets, They have seen a big decrease in the abuse to the street dogs and, and that's that generation had to grow up with it and grow up with that law. So, sorry to interrupt you once again. But it reminded me of that.

I hadn't thought about that. And I didn't think about that when I was reading your book, but it, it is a to catch that generation and change their mindset. 

[00:27:16] Ciaran: Yeah. That's No, I've, I've seen it. I've been in countries where street dogs are 60, 70% of the national dog herd and the condition most of them are in is appalling.

You know, that, that

and you know, when you talk to the managers of the animal pharma companies, again, does this sort of bind well, we can help charities to a certain extent. It's a very difficult struggle and the struggle really, it really has to come. What, what type of society do the children want to live in? And if that can be clarified at a young age, then it will, it will take control and very quickly.

So that has, I would say is the quickest way to get the best solution you can bring in. And then you're always at the mercy of enforcement and the money to enforce the laws are only as good as the people who are within the laws and who are willing to enforce. But that could be, that could be very difficult, 

[00:28:18] Billie: which I think is why regulating the industry is challenging because it's big.

It becomes a whole different way of doing things, you know, complete people don't think about it, but they'll say, oh, this has to be, you know, scientifically proven or this. Well, if it's non-regular. You can't do everything that way. There's just simply no regulation and that has good and bad and all sorts of different effects.

But I did want to anyway, that's a whole other topic, but I wanted to, to get to talk to you about is with my clients because I deal with families. I find it funny that, and I talked about this in another episode that a lot of the, the bulk of the responsibility. Goes on the one family member. Sometimes it's, it's the man commonly it's the woman.

And sometimes the kids are far more step up to the plate and come to the sessions and do the work and all ask questions in my sessions. And the kids will have all the answers and the, and that, you know, that some of the other family members, the adults will be really well. Oh, I didn't know. You guys do that with, so it's a matter.

And I find my stats definitely prove if I, the more family members that are involved, the higher chances of success, sometimes the kids are right on board and it's at some of the adults that are, ah, you guys can deal with. And when the dog's good, let me know. 

[00:29:56] Ciaran: Yeah, I that's totally understandable when ever I've been to dog training conferences, they two factors or to jump out.

One is about 85% of the participants there. So dog training is very much a female world and dog hair is very much a female world. Then when it comes to family commitment to the dog it's very much the LM forum choice is shouting out every. And it's the lack of a consensus about how do we work together over the next 10 to 15 years?

And when that's not there, this is what you get. So what's very common. What's very common. I saw this almost every week at the rescue shelter. You would have a family coming in and they will get a dog and it will be the child pushing it. They. The mother going along with the father being less than enthusiastic, but keeping the show together.

Now, what the book is trying to do is reverse that. In other words, what's the joint resolve who's signing up for that. And if you like the hidden message and the book is this is a contract, not just between the child and the dog. It's a contract between the family, the dog underlined over X number of years.

And there's a part in the book, which explains how do the children deal with the day when the dog may pass away. In other words, when grief comes into the family and hopefully. The dog would be the first to go in any family. That's I know that sounds terrible. It sounds harsh, but that's that's, that is basically a God sense.

If, if your pet is the first to go in your family usually they have a shorter life expectancy life span than anybody than any other member of the family. And the book explains how children should approach. We were very fortunate. We did, we had a couple of child psychologists advising us on how to put that chapter together.

So it's a tough one and we were in two minds. Should it be in there and not be in there? And I think it's, it's quite property in there, but they, if you have all of the family buying into it now where you have cases where you can't guess. Comprehensive buy-in from the parent or parents and the children.

Maybe that's not the right time. Maybe this isn't the project to run with at the moment. Now it doesn't mean it won't be the right practice to run with in a year or two years, but certainly not. So like in the focus group, we had three children out of 10 saying it sounds like a good idea, but I don't really want to do any more of these learning tasks.

And I prefer to go back on the bicycle or play football with my friends. There you go. Then, you know, you'd have parents who say, well, who, who got out of jail free there? Yeah. 

[00:33:19] Billie: Yeah. It's almost like the book is a little bit of a get out of jail free card because you know, we're going to go through this book and now how do we feel about things?

And so, again, that, that is a that's I keep doing this, but that's the way that cognitive behavioral therapy works. Right? You provide skills and education and you, and through that skill and education, they make those decisions themselves. They decide. Hmm. Now that, now that I have. Knowledge, maybe we shouldn't get a dog and it, and it just works better instead of the parents saying no, no, no, no, no, no, because you can only, you can only do that so much with the dog and you can only do that so much with children, but actually have this book and go through it together as a family and the kids might surprise the parents.

As you said it, it's not. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I, what I, what a great family thing to do together and to make that decision and, and yeah, I think it's a, really, a really, really unique and needed and progressive book and, and the mindset that it comes from and the man mindset that he created. So, thank you so much.

Is there anything else that you want to add? I mean, for sure, I will have the links in the show notes as to where they can get the book and to you as well. Is there now you're on LinkedIn, any other media, 

[00:34:48] Ciaran: our website is called dog internet of things. And the book again is called. When your child asks for a dog and the subtitle is one night, Leo guide stay away.

So maybe one last word about Leo. Leo is a dog that came into my life. He does exist. He has only one. I was in a car crash to say, and was in a rescue shelter for a while. So he just happened to be the perfect dog at the right time. And if you like his, his sort of life is, has been extremely difficult, but his spirit is taking him everywhere around the world at the moment.

And so the book has been translated into four or five languages at the moment, and we've had some, we have some veterinary organizations backing it. It's been endorsed by. Society for the prevention of cruelty to animals and the international society of animal professionals, as well as a host of, of leading dog welfare experts, dog trainers, dog lawyers.

So 

[00:36:03] Billie: fantastic. 

[00:36:05] Ciaran: Yeah. So they, they the ambition anyway is that it would just change the mindset of people who. Encountering this conversation for the first time. So I would say to every parent, I would just finally say to any parent out there don't panic and the book will be a knockdown price. I think it's only about $12 50.

Ah, We, we have a, sort of a unique marketing strategy. We are, we are going to put it on Amazon in the next week or two. What we'll be also selling it, true dog welfare websites. And the cost will be a lot lower on a dog welfare website. And you get those on Amazon because the intention is to only work true.

The dog welfare websites eventually. Yeah. And we want to keep the money in the industry, not, not with the, the Amazons of the world, but we have to go down that route for the moment, for the next few months. Just to get the word 

[00:37:13] Billie: out there. Yes, absolutely. Oh, well, you've been so dedicated to this project.

It's phenomenal. And the dog world appreciates that. Well, 

[00:37:23] Ciaran: I, I want to finish off with a special kind of because I think a lot of people. Yes, there is not, may not realize the very large pirates you played in this book. And I work for a magazine many years ago, and it's the most difficult and thankless job you ever have is the so badging and going through word by word and sentence by sentence.

It's something you have done. It's I'll put it this way. The work you've put in there, it's given the bulk of right backbone and the spine. But also it sort of flows nicely because you, you found things in there that 50 other experts just didn't see. So I would say your, what store your prints are all over it.

Thank you. 

[00:38:12] Billie: Thanks once again. Thank you so much. Oh, I really appreciate that. I feel emotional over that. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed working with you and I just think you're wonderful. And thank you so much for joining us.

Take care of here by.

So I'm going to flip this conversation on its back and have a short chat on bringing a child into your life while you already have a dog. It is so common for couples to have a great dog. And then when they bring a baby home, They feel the need to either rehome or surrender their dock. And this is not a bad dog.

In fact, the reason they give for surrendering is nothing horrible or bad. They claim they don't have enough time. What this really means is that they had to adjust their life and their activities too much because the dog was not well-trained enough to be included into these new activities that were happening due to the arrival of a baby.

For example, walking with a stroller. Now they have to have separate walks their dog from their child because the leash reactivity prior to having the baby arrive, it was, it was manageable using distractions or avoidance, but not so much when you're walking with. Or they can't have people over and they could have people over before, but the dog was jumping and generally being a nuisance, but it really wasn't that big of a deal.

The dog would just kind of go lay down. But now that there's a baby there, the dog is wanting to be more involved and there's different people coming in. Oh all too difficult. So then they have to separate the dog as well. There's other babies and children coming, and it's just simply too much. And so the dog gets put away and then it's extra time because they have to spend that time separately with the dog.

They also want to go places with their family, such as picnics and play dates and camping. And then they start to think about, oh, in the future, we're going to go to baseball games or soccer and. And they're going to want to have birthday parties as the child grows up. And this all just seems like there's no way the dog is going to be able to be able to enjoy life with that family.

And it just gets too much and they surrender. These are all workable and they all work as a whole dogs can learn to be included in these activities. At course, it's recommended to start working on these prior to the arrival of the baby. So if you sort of think to yourself, wow, could I do this activity with my dog and with a child and sort of have this realistic outlook on whether you could or not.

We can start working on that. K9 CBT is effective because unlike conventional techniques, it's intended to change, not establish routines and behaviors. So these dogs already have routines and behaviors. We can change those. And it's actually not that time. By keeping good dogs in homes, we can decrease the number of dogs in shelters and in rescue organizations.

So please be proactive if possible and seek information. Please share this information as well. And your support is appreciated. And I think Ciaran's book would make a great Christmas gift. Please do not hesitate to reach out to any of the guests on any of the episodes. And please support our efforts by following us on social media.

All the links are in the show notes. Thanks again to our wonderful musicians, the Jeff Merdock band and open strum. Please email me with any questions to Billie at upper dog. ology.com. Enjoy your learning journey.